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The conversation took place in Italy in august of this year. I got to know two russian girls with different Bbckgrounds and differently settled and thought I could not let the chance go by to tape a conversation with them in which I confront them with the issues of: Especially the homophobia and the “new” hunt of homosexuals in russia, but also Putin and the massively restricted freedom of expression. The outcome is a testimony of manipulated thinking and homophobia but also of the fear and desperation of young women in their country russia.
N: How do you experience the issue of being homosexual in russia?
S: I think your comception about homosexuals differs with which cultural surrounding you live in. So for me its something really difficult. There are a lot of social problems now in russia. It becomes a really big problem for the women to bear children and to find happieness, because a lot of women stay alone because men decide to love other men. So for me and my friends its hard to accept.
N:Do you talk about the topic of homosexuality with your friends?
S: Yes, I do talk about it. For example, my best friend now has a 1-year old son. I visited them this year in Barcelona, Spain. There was a one week long gay-pride-festival in Barcelona. One day I was watching the show, it was a big celebration. I expected to see only gays – but there were families with small children, they were normal couples! I cannot imagine normal men watching gay men. In russia its not normal for normal guys to look at gays – its not a pleasure for them.
N: Do you consider it as normal to be gay?
S: No. My and my friends think that it is some kind of disease in the head.
N: You yourself think this way actively?
S: Okay, for example. I was at this gay pride party in Barcelona and saw lots of couples with babies. I was thinking:’ I would never come to the gay pride with my baby’. Of corse its their life and they have a right to choose if to be gay or not. But I dont want my child to think that its normal. Its not normal and it will never be normal. I dont want my child to see the men dancing in womens clothes with long hair and breasts and…
N: Why do you think its not normal?
S: pauses long Because of the nature. For me its not natural. For me its like to have a third arm. And I think that 80% of the people in russia think that its not normal. (In fact, over 70% of the inhabitants of russia dont accept it, http://www.taz.de/!116389/) I live in a small town. In St.Petersburg the people have an open mind, they are more open to everything – they can accept everything. If you go naked on the street – they will accept it. A lot of artists live in St.Petersburg, they accept everything you do. In a small town where the people lived a long time, its not open-minded, you cant find any gays showing their sexuality freely.
N: Of corse, now its even impossible because of the law. Let me just go through some things: 1933-1993:Ther was a Law claiming “homosexuality is illegal and will be punished with 5 years being in jail or psychatry.”
S,V: surprised It was in russia, are you sure?
N: In 1993 finally it got legal, and since 1999 its not on the list of mental sicknesses anymore, so before 1999 it was listed as a mental sickness in russia. This year on the 30th juny 2013 – as you know – Putin signed the law against the homosexual propaganda which includes evry kind of showing or talking about homosexuality in public not only of of gays, lesbians or bisexual but also from straight/hetero people who just want to say theire opinion as a “free human” in a “free country” thinking that they respect homosexuality or that homosexuality should be respected. To say your free opinion about it in public is forbidden now ever since that law was signed. The Punishmend would be minimun 2300 euros or 15 days in jail. 86% of the people in russia welcome this law, 5% would kill a homosexual.
S: Yes, but I think more then 5%…
V: I dont think they would really kill, they just say it.
N: Its an expression that they have a strong hate and fear, which goes hand in hand. 74% consider it as a mental desease. 15% barely accept it as an alternative form of sexuality. In many european countries many people and politicians claim, that this law judging gays is against human rights. Russia is criminazyling human beings and russia is going straight forward to become even more like a dictatorship.
V: I dont think that this law will lead to a dictatorship…
N: Its a metaphor that it is leading into an unfree country. Because if you think of democracy it includes the freedom of expression and the freedom of living.
S: I dont like the concept of somebody shutting up my mouth but when I want to speak freely – but I like the law. Because I dont want information, saying that its normal, to spread. There is no possibility for people to show theyre sexuality in russia, if you show your homosexuality, you will probably be beaten to the hospital, which happens everyday. Because in russia there are a lot of closed-minded people.
N: As you said you yourself dont accept it.
S: Mhh…I dont accept the gays. But for me its a form of a human desease, something did happen with him, before his mother gave birth. Its not normal – its just like this.
N: Why are you afraid? Afraid, that it will affect your kids. Just an example: In many countries homosexual people are allowed to marry and you look at them as a couple, which is not different then any other couple. Its in some countries like England or the Netherlands its possible for homosexual couples to adopt children. ( In germany its just possible when one child is already the biological child of one of the parents). So – its clear that a homosexual couple is physically unable to bear children, but why shouldnt they be able to adopt children.
V: Even if I would accept gays, id think that having children is impossible for them. Because these children will not see mother and father, but mother and mother or father and father and in the future and he or she will in the future also be gay or lesbian.
N: What do you think when popular people like Elton John and Neil Patrick Harris are homosexual and adopted children.
S: Natural instincts are existing, making a baby wanna drink from the breast of its mother. The kid needs it biological mother and with two dads I dont think its possible for the kid to fall in love with a woman. Only mothers can teach children how to accept women, to love women and how to live with women. I dont know why – but with lesbians its really another thing for me. I dont know why, but I accept lesbians.
N: Have you heard of the word Homophobia? Its the term for the fear of homosexual people. Many men and women – but especially men – have that problem. The fear of homosexual people. Could it be, that many russian men are just afraid to be considered as gay as soon as they show acceptance for gay people?
S: In terms of psychology, when you hate or judge a characteristic of another human, it actually means, that you have it inside, like you look into a mirror and you dont accept it in yourself.
N: That actually incudes, that if you hate or fear a homosexual, youre simply afraid of yourself loving the same genderor being open to it.
S: I think that this small amount of the 5 % that really hate gays, they have something deep inside them, they feel that they could be a gay.If theres a strong hate, maybe theres something inside them and they cant accept it.
N: You said you accept lesbians, but not gay men? Is that a product of society’s teaching and conditioning.
S: I dont think that I could be a lesbian. But sometimes I feel that men hurt women so much and so many times. As I was 18 or 19 I was thinking of being a lesbian, (V: gives her a shocked look) something like a teenage-foolish way of thinking. But of corse I know, that Im not a lesbian. I accept it, when women are hurt too much and they dont want to stay with men anymore. Because men are from a different planet – they cant understand our feelings, they cant understand our pain.
N: What is the difference between lesbians and gays?
S: I dont know – Im a woman and so its like this for me… Maybe you can help me to understand why I can accept lesbians but not gays.
N: I think in general society is accepting lesbians more or in a different way then gay men. On the face of if you are judging homosexual people, you often judge theire way of having sex.
S: Yes.
N: And imagine, tomorrow youd wake up and your sexuality would be the minority, the rest of the world would be homosexual. So the majority would look at you and judge you by the way of having sex. If you just imagine being judged that way, how does it feel?
S: I understand your question, but everyone in a certain part of his life will be judged. For example, all years in school i was judged because I am not original russian, I am sibirian, so i was judged just because I have another nationality.
N: And you think its fair?
S: No…But…I understand your question.I dont want to kill the gays. Its just not a pleasure for me to look at them.
N: What do you fear, when you see homosexual people?
S: I feel something indifferent, I dont care, I just dont want to see it. Its not a pleasure to look at them. They can go to some doctors or some hospitals, but I dont want to look at them.
N: If you go out with your boyfriend, you ar able to show your love like holding hands, hug eachother or kiss. What is it thats making it an unpleasure to look at with boy-boy or girl-girl, displaying theyre affinity and affection?
S: No. Gays are not normal persons.You cannot give them the same rights as other humans have. I dont know, how many people in Russia are gay, maybe 2-3%?
N: Now you cannot really say a proper percentage, because since its highly social discredited, many homosexuals are just daring to be themselves hidden. How will you say a number, when officially gay persons risk their live by going on the street.
V: 100 years ago it was discredited if a man and woman go on the streets holding hands, so of corse now maybe you can do it as a normal couple, but not as gays. You can do it at home. And dont adopt children because it will hurt your children in the future.
N: Why should homosexuals only show their love at home?
S: If they know that the people dont accept them – why do they have to fight? Why cannot do their love at home, why do they have to show it on the street?If theyre only 5-10% in the world (/in russia) and the majority of the world (/of russia) thinks its not normal – its like they provoke the people to get beaten.
N: Think of persons with green eyes ,lets say ten percent of the worldpopulation have green eyes ( in fact it is 2%). You could also restrict that by saying why should that minority go to the street, thats just provocative.
V:Because its nature.
N:Why cant it be nature to love a man or a woman.
S: But why do they have to show it on the street! They can go to the streets, but why do they wanna kiss on the street, this is not necessary for a living organism!
N: Living organisms like human beings want to express their feelings.
V: Then I could just say whatever I want, like: I want to smoke weed on the street. Its not accepted by law.
S: If I want to shit in the middle of the street as an expression of my feelings – is it comfortable for you to look at it? And this is even more natural then the kiss of two guys.
V: Sometimes its even emberassing for me to kiss my boyfriend on the streets.
S: Yes, because maybe there are old women around who cant accept it. And I will not do it then because I care for the people around me, i dont want to ashame the people around me. I cannot change them. If id have the possibility to change it, id love to change them. I have no choice but to accept, so at least i dont want to see it.
N: Who do they harm with love?
V: They harm especially children, if they see it everyday. Or a couple, which is married for many years and suddenly the man decides to be gay.
S: I think its something about the chromosomes and genes that is happening in the unborn child. For women, its a huge problem. Women dont want to see a man shaking his hips like they’re supposed to do or a girl in a mens body.
V: If they think they’re born in the wrong body, they have to attempt a psychologist as it is a mental sickness.
S:I dont see it psychologically, i see it in the chromosomes. What about you, do you really accept it in everybody?
N: Yes, of corse I accept it in everybody. In one song a german band sings “its as normal as chewing a chewing gum”, also parts of certain media give you education and enlightement about these topics of sexuality, you are able to inform yourself about it -contrary to the restriction of it being a taboo. Plus public persons as politicians out themselves as gay. For instance the (former) foreign minister Guido Westerwelle – he is gay and married. But also in Germany and other european countries – homophobia is a big problem(…) Obviously how you been raised, what education you had from your parents and especially from the society and the media – at one day you see so much medial Input conciously and uncousiously – its defining how you think about the topic. Imagine if the medial influence tought you that they are the same?
S: This is why I accept the law that Putin signed that summer. Europe really is too open-minded – they can accept everything. I dont want my country to think these things are normal.
N: What would happen, where is the problem? What would change in your life?
S: There will be a lot of gays.
V: Not for our lifes – in the future. There would be a dominant instinct of the population.
S: Women will not be able to find a partner just because men decide to be gay. In russia the population is ten women on seven men. The quantity of man is too small. Imagine me saying to my kids: Ok, you want to be a gay, go for it, honey!
N: So youll be a grandmother, because if the right of adoption would exist, you could have grandchildren, there’d be no difference.
V: In general I can accept homosexual people – but them adopting a child, that I think is the biggest problem.
N: You know the word diversity? That in your environment theres a huge variety of the peoples colours, traits and personality and ways of thinking. Can you imagine seeing that diversity as an inspiration or enrichment ? Saying “You live like this, thats interesting, I live like that and we both have the right to live the way we want, i we dont harm anyone.” Without a certain freedom of diversity, we’ d look all the same. How do you justify your freedom if the same law cages in others?
S: If you said, you accept every kind of sexuality…
N: As long as its not harming anybody. I know that in russia you put homosexuality at one level with paedophiles, necrophilia…
S: Its harmful for a normal woman in a normal life – its harmful because normal women cant find a man. A lot of women stay alone their whole life because the men are gay. There is no difference between for example paedophiles and homosexuality -both harm.
V: As soon as a homosexual couple shows off their love in public, they are harming me, because dont want to see it. Its hurting my imagination of real actual love.
S: Do you wan to see a man beating a woman on the street? Is this something for you?
N: How do you compare these things?
S: For us its not normal for a man to beat a woman on the street just as its not normal to see homosexual people kissing on the street. Its just like that!
N: So..you have your own mindset about how a family and how love should be and you dont want it to be distured.
V: I dont want to see annormal things on the street…because its unnormal.Its disturbing my thinking.
N: If the information of media and politics wouldnt display homosexuality as discredited as its the case in russia – could you imagine, that you would think another way?
S: I think for me nothing would change, because I havnt watch TV for the last two years, I dont listen to radio or read the news. Because I dont accept it because I dont want somebody to have this stupid influence on me. I dont read newspaper or magazines – I am not somebody where you put inside the head what to think. The news in russia is something terrible. Switch on the TV and everywhere something crashed or somewhere is a terrorist, deseases,…Everything is bad. But usually this is not true.
V: But the opinion on homosexuals for me is built not by media, but by nature.
S: By my father, my mother, my family and my surrounding. I only accept that kind of influence, not the media to push some buttons in my head.
V: I watch BBC news everyday, because I am studying world politics.
N: (Many times, nearly on a daily-basis gays in russia get violently beaten. Ther e was that incident, 10 people protesting for their rights as homosexual s. At least 50-100 nazis came and beat them up. One adidas-store next to that incident formed the arms of the dummies to the “Heil Hitler”-sign.)Even though they beat them up and harm them to death, they usually dont get in charge for it. If a case gets on the court it goes lost on purpose. The gouvernment does not see gays as part of a social group.
About religion: The orthodox patriarch Kirill sais “homosexuality is like an apocalypse”, preaching and spreading it as “the evil”. Could the orthodox church of russia be a main source of homophobia ?
V: No. Religion in russia is not pushing people to think like it. It depends on the person.
N: About the islamic religion in russia: 2006 the great Mufti Talgat Tadschuddin said in an Interview with the newsagency Interfax,prophet Muhammed himself told to kill homosexuals, because “their behaviour would led to the end of human race”. Actively, he told muslims and orthodox to go on the street to beat up homosexuals if the CSD later in this year would happen.
S: Really? Its impossible that prophet Mohammed said something like this. There are a lot of gays in arab states.
N: Its restricted as its a huge tabboo in many islamic countries.
(…)
N: Does your media in movies eg. show the exsistance of homosexual couples in any way?
S: Only in some arthouse movies. But it will never show on TV. Its neglected like its not existing.
N: The US-serie “GLEE” got boadcasted weekly in russia and there was a scene of guys kissing. It got cut out.
S: Of corse…
N: That the percentage of famous people or politicians in russia that are homosexual should be much lower then in other countries, is unlikely. Marriages of convienience may be used to cover up.
S: That may be. But they dont show – so they dont damage… For example if in russia some famous actor said that he is gay, he would loose a lot of fans.
N: What do you think about Putin?
S:If he is gay?
N: No. In general.
S: We cannot talk about it!
N: Why?
S: Because our country is not a democracy. I have a situation, it was on a street here in Italy. A politician car drove by with many securities. Besides me a rich-looking lady showed the middle finger. I was shocked. I asked my friend:”How dare she”. He said “we are living in a democracy.” If something like this would happen in russia, the person and its family would be killed.
V: No, Not killed. Punished.
S: No, Its possible, that they get killed.
N: Local journalists in russia who critisized Putin got poisened and killed like Alexander Walterowitsch Litwinenko .
V: Our press: russian press and russian media – is made by the russian gouvernment. We know that. Clever people or rich people have another view on politics, people who study at good places or abroad get other views. Now its a really bad situation.
N: What is your personal opinion about Putin, can you tell me or are you afraid of something?
V: Putin, he…I dont know…I need to think… S: Yes, I am somehow afraid. I dont want to have more problems than I have now.
N: Do you talk about him honest in public or with friends and family?
V: No.
S: As he got reelected there was alot of opposition existing, alot of persons who were ready to go on streets just to said “No!”. Because: it was all faked. Nobody wanted Putin to become president again. The election was manipulated. You could vote for anybody and Putin would change it to a voice for hisself.
V: No, I dont agree. We had no alternative person to rule our country. With Putin we have stability. We have a bad situation, but its stable(…)
S: interrupts, exhausted What, stability?? Stability in a bad situation? laughs
V: In 30 years nothing will change.
S: But it will get worse and worse and worse. Its not stable. Stable is when a country is in a situation and has got future. With Putin, we have no future. I believe that we have lots of persons who that are ready to fight for a better situation but if they try something, they get beaten up or put in jail. They cant do something, because its not a democracy, they get punished for their different opinion. And Im worried because deep inside I love my country and I cannot change this situation.
N: The opression of the freedom of expression you can just see on cases like Pussy riot…
V: That is anoter thing. They did it in the church, which is blasphemic. They hurt the feelings of religious people.
N: Using music to transport their opinion, which is their freedom of expression…
S: They used that place to get the attention, it was like a bomb. Otherwise they wouldnt have gained that attention. They want to fight for freedom and a democracy therefore they have to get attention. By putting them in jail, putin is just verifying their arguments. I deeply love my country, but I want to leave it. It is working for a few people. But it never works for people that need your help. If you have themoney, you have the life. If you dont have money, the gouvernmant does not help you, nothing. If you have to go to the church and show your breast to get the people to listen to you, you need to go there and show your breast.
V: In russia, you cant change anything now.
S: If everybody would stop fighting, it will become even more worse than it is now. In russia, everyday is surviving.
V: No. For poor people, yes, life is surviving, but for us, life is ok. For me its ok, because i have everything. I think 30-40% of the people in russia live well. If you work hard, your future will be ok. If you wanna have a future, you can do it.
S: That is a fairytale. People that work the whole day and night can barely survive or will never get the same chances as we do or live in our conditions. I think maybe 80% of the people in russia work hard and get paid unfair and end up poor no matter how hard they work. Many people working their ass off more then we will ever do will probably never get the same possibilities as we have. Maybe we can even be lazy but we will still be in a better situation. Its just unfair. In russia, if you dont have money or connections, you are nothing, you are shit. I love my country, my culture, my literature, I am proud of my country – really. But I dont wanna stay there anymore, I am tired to fight. I am a young woman – I want to live, not to fight. I really want to leave russia.
N: Where do you wanna move?
S: I hope somewhere in Europe, because I wanna be able to stand on the street and scream :”Fuck everything”. I dont need to do it, but I want to have that option. I feel like I should have been born in Europe, not in russia.